Engagement Isn’t Broken—Work Is: Patrick Manigault on Building Human-Centered Organizations

In this episode of Activating Greatness, Alec McChesney sits down with executive coach and author Patrick Manigault to challenge how we think about engagement, leadership, and the modern workplace. Patrick explains why engagement isn’t broken—but rather our current approach is inadequate—and how organizations continue to treat symptoms instead of addressing the root cause. From the concept of “robot culture” to the need for a mindset shift toward relational leadership, this conversation explores how businesses can move beyond productivity and create truly human-centered environments that drive performance, trust, and long-term success. If you’re a leader navigating burnout, disengagement, and evolving workforce expectations, this episode offers a powerful framework for rethinking how work actually works

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Activating Greatness, the show where we dig into what it really takes to lead with purpose, inspire performance, and create lasting impact. As always, I'm your host, Alec McChesney. And every episode, we sit down with leaders, thinkers, and change makers who are unlocking potential in themselves, their teams, and their organizations. Here we talk about the real stuff: leadership that drives culture, strategy that creates momentum, and the mindset that turns good intentions into game-changing results. Because greatness, it isn't a title, it's a choice. It's something you activate every single day. So thank you. Thank you for listening, for showing up, and for being part of a community of leaders who refuse to settle for good enough. Now let's dive in and meet today's incredible guest. Today's guest is Patrick Manigal, an executive coach, team facilitator, and thought leader focused on humanizing leadership and the future of work. Patrick brings more than two decades of experience helping leaders and organizations shift from transactional leadership to more relational, humane, and impactful ways of leading. His work centers on building cultures rooted in trust, empathy, authenticity, and accountability, all with the goal of improving engagement, performance, and well-being. He is also the author of an upcoming book focused on how we move from what he calls robot culture to a more human-centered way of working and leading. And today, that's really what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about why engagement is broken in the current structure, how we got here, and what it takes to build more human, high-performing organizations in today's world. Patrick, I am ecstatic for this episode. One hidden part of that introduction is that you and I also work together here at Velocity Advisory Group. I've also had early access to read the book. And I am so fired up about making work more human, about being more human on a day-to-day basis. But before I start rattling off questions and grilling you left and right, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit further for those who are not familiar with you yet, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Oh, Alec, thank you. Thank you so much for that really wonderful introduction. Um, thank you for having me on the podcast. Uh, I'm really grateful to be part of this. And um as you mentioned about mindsets, I'm all about changing mindsets and turning really good intentions into game-changing results. Um, I feel like it's time to change the game. Um and so uh just a little bit more about me. Um I often refer to myself as a former physicist, turned business consultant and executive coach. I've spent 25 years in professional services, coached over 500 business professionals, and learned a lot along the way. So the book that you reference is a lot about what I've what I've learned and how I see cultures evolving. Um, I've worked in a lot of high performing organizations, worked with and seen uh a lot of high-functioning teams and low-functioning teams. And this is a lot, our conversation today is really about how do we um how do we create more engagement and have those high-functioning teams. Um, and I'd say in the in this uh in this chapter of my career, uh, I am for sure on a mission to humanize work so that both people and businesses thrive. Um and as you mentioned, I'm gonna be publishing a book later this year on this topic. Um, the title is Humanity at Work, How Caring People Will Create Thriving Workplaces. So I'm super excited and looking forward to this conversation, Alex.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I, you know, you you just set us up for so many good tangents that I want to go down already in terms of the humanity at work, the book, and still being able to have a high-performing team. And I think that's gonna be an angle that a lot of people have questions about. But I think we have to start at the top. As I was reading the book, one of the things that really came to my attention, and I have felt it, uh, I've felt the burnout, I've felt the need to quit my job and buy a farm and live somewhere in Scandinavia numerous times on a on a day-to-day basis over the last handful of years. But your core belief is that if we want people to be engaged at work, we have to learn to engage them differently. And that the way we talk about engagement, the way we think about engagement is broken. So, from your perspective, I think that's where we have to start. What's broken about how organizations approach engagement today and why is that traditional model no longer sufficient for the world that we have?

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Uh, Alec, I love that question. Um and I'm gonna start by saying our approach isn't broken, it's actually just inadequate to produce thriving work environments. And let me and I'll explain why. Um, and I'm gonna I'm gonna address it in three from three perspectives. I'm gonna talk about the approach, I'm gonna talk about um the problem, and then the result of all of it. So um so to start with, um I have a simple definition of engagement. And when I think of engagement, it's how much I want to be there in my job and how much uh I am willing to give it my best. Very simple definition. So uh Gallup did a a survey, and in their survey of uh a global workplace, they identified that 21% of people are feel basically feel disengaged at work. I'm sorry, I said it backwards. 21% of people are engaged at work. 21% and so that leaves almost 80% of people not even feeling engaged at work. And so disengagement often looks like you know, poor motivation, uh not great work quality, uh, people kind of withdrawing, pulling away, missing work, staying quiet when they should speak up, um, and just sometimes just a loss of purpose. So we can ask the question like, why? Why do companies need people to be engaged? Well, it impacts their productivity, uh, impacts quality, impacts efficiency, job satisfaction, culture. So some of the approaches, and I would, like I said, they're not broken, uh, but some of the approaches, um, the current approaches have to do with recognition, making sure people are recognized for their contributions, um, improving communication channels within the workplace, uh, supporting well-being, uh, uh helping helping people grow, focused on their development, uh refocusing everyone on purpose, and then things like uh really incorporating belonging into people's experience. So those are all really great things. Really good things, but there's a problem because um we're treating symptoms and not actually the underlying issue or cause. So it's almost like we have our foot on the gas to make things better, and then we also have our foot on the brake at the same time. So um I'm gonna get to what that underlying issue is, but I'm gonna give you an example really quickly. Please, please. So I was um I was working uh with an organization during the pandemic, and um I think like a lot of organizations, they were concerned about you know making the revenue targets, they were concerned about um falling behind, they were concerned about a looming recession. And so what they did was what I referred to as the gather acorn strategy. Um and this basically looked like they increased their performance expectations while like tossing a bunch of well-being resources at the people that were working in the organization. So it was great that they were mindful of the fact that people needed something during something different during the pandemic. It was great that they were um aware that people were struggling. I was working with people who were not just trying to survive a pandemic, but what I eventually concluded was that they're they were also trying to survive their jobs. And so when I say putting the foot on the gas and then also on the brake, the issue is that we're trying to solve this problem of engagement or disengagement, but at the same time, there's a what I would like to refer to as the problem, the main problem it being uh the machine mindset. And so that machine mindset is where all of us are in a system where workplaces really weren't birth built for human with human beings in mind, they were built to optimize productivity, focused on efficiency, control, and output.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I I wanna I wanna pause on basically all of it. I feel like I'm getting my MBA right now, Patrick, uh, which is which is great. And I've obviously read the text uh that you have written. There's a couple of things that I want to reiterate. 21% of employees report feeling engaged at work. I mean, that that statement alone, if you're looking at it in the right way, is twofold. One, it's a little depressing. It's depressing to hear that that is the number. But also, you have to be looking at it as a business leader, as a potential competitive advantage. That if you can be the differentiator in the market and your competitors all have 21% engagement, but you have 50, 60, 70, 80% engagement, you're gonna have increased retention, you're gonna become more efficient. This becomes a competitive advantage when you have those highly engaged, highly invested employees, which I think is something that people need to hear because a huge concern, I shouldn't even say concern because it's unfair, Patrick, but a a huge counterpoint to this engagement philosophy goes to the second part of your answer there, which is well, we still have to hit numbers, we have to hit the output, we have to hit the quota, and we need to drill, baby, drill over and over again. And it it is counterintuitive to the conversation that we're talking about humanity and the whole person. And yet what you're referencing is you could still be a high performing team, you can still hit goal, you can still hit quota and actually have engagement and actually have happy employees. And in fact, it might be easier to hit goal and to hit quota and to hit the outcomes that you're looking for if you have highly engaged employees and a happy workforce.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Uh, I'm gonna address one uh phrase we used. You said counter, you said counterintuitive.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Um so on the one hand, I get what you mean. Uh, because from the way in which we've been trained to operate, um, we like I mentioned before, we the human being is within a system that is focused on output, it's focused on our productivity, how efficient we can be. Um and that's and we're seeing that even with AI now. Um, so but I know this conversation is not about AI, but the question I keep asking is what is AI in service to? And if AI is in service to increase productivity, the human's gonna be and and only that. Because it should be, it definitely should be um in service to that. But if it's only that, then the human being is gonna continue to struggle.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah, they're gonna stay on the wheel, they're gonna stay on the hamster wheel that is outputs versus outcomes, and then we get into the surviving not thriving. And anytime I've had this conversation over the last decade, and and I'm speaking from uh very true experience of burnout at uh when I was in journalism at the Lincoln Journal Star in Kansas City before that. And uh, a lot of the individuals that I worked with through college and my early years in that profession have all quit because of the burnout, and because of that being a cog in the machine. It's where we get into that busy culture. And in the book, you talk about it as kind of that robot culture, the busyness, the business of busyness. And um, we had Perry Heedrich on uh one of the first episodes that we did, and he talked about hustle culture and the flaws within that infrastructure. But what does that actually look like? It it's it's a it's a buzzword, but what does what do these look like in real organizations? And how did we get here? How is it suddenly so like a badge of honor to have burnout and a badge of honor to be so busy that I can't eat my lunch on a Tuesday afternoon? What what led to that? And and what does that really look like at an organizational level, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah, Alex, um, we have a survive work problem. And and so um that that burnout you're talking about, that tendency to overwork, um, these are all uh symptoms of of this survive work problem. So it's because we're constantly being pressured to work more. If we free up time, that time gets uh absorbed and we're continue, even if we're more productive, the time still gets absorbed for us to uh really in some say it sense, I'd the way I describe it sometimes is being slaves to the clock. You know, we're working a specific number of hours. We uh sometimes for many uh corporate business professionals, those hours extend far beyond a 40-hour work week. So when I've had conversations with uh the people that I coach, uh the reasons why they they tell me that they are surviving their jobs uh aside from money, are typically or money issues. You put the money issues aside, it's because they have poor relationships with their managers and sometimes the people around them. They're not experiencing that they have uh, they're not experiencing the opportunities they want they want in their jobs. Uh they don't feel like their organizations see them, respect them as human beings, or support or value them. And I mentioned the long hours, but there's also boredom in some cases. The good news is for some of the rote routine work that is is mind-numbing, uh, AI in some ways, in a lot of ways, can take some of that over. But it doesn't really replace that experience experience at the end of the week that most people feel when they've been overworked, which is that sense of thank God it's Friday. Yeah. And so this sense of surviving our jobs is is reflected in our language. So we say things like end of the week at the end of the week, thank God it's Friday, the beginning of the week, if I'm feeling stressed and I'm not like I don't feel like getting out of bed. Sometimes the phrase is uh that person or I have a case of the Mondays, we look up middle of the week is hump day, and like we're we're getting over the hump so we can finally uh finally get to the end of the week and experience some relief. And then the question that I often uh think about when it comes to workplace survival is the question, what would you do if you won the lottery?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

And most people are gonna quit they're gonna quit their job. They're gonna quit right away. That's the first thing that they would do.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yes, that's right. And that's what most people respond. They say, uh, you know, I'm I'm I I quit my job, I'd travel, maybe I would uh I might retire early, uh, go somewhere remote, become a writer, maybe do nothing. But it's always anything but this. But that's just normal in our society. And so uh what I'm advocating is that we need a mindset shift and we need a culture and system shift. So the mindset shift is from looking at people as resources to manage, to to overwork and exploit, to a new paradigm where we look at people and humans as as uh humans as people to support.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

I'm in. Let's just end it right now. We've done it, it's completed. It it it it seems like a it seems like a no-brainer. I'm gonna ask my at least I'm gonna ask my first bad podcast question. I usually only give myself one, but I've got a feeling I might have a couple in this episode here in the next 20 minutes. So I want to start with this. Why not? Why aren't we doing this? What is the what is the the flaw here that is the biggest problem? Why, why are we not making this change? It all seems so obvious that we would bring this forward. So why why are we not doing this, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 18:30

So you mentioned that uh I had written about robot culture. Um I think it's very much embedded in our beliefs about work. Um, I talked about how the emphasis is around maximizing efficiency and productivity. This all comes out of the uh industrial revolution. Um where you know prior the prioritization was um power and control, um, and making and there's a lot of great things that came out of the industrial revolution. Um, great tech technological progress, societal transformation, um, the uh Henry Fords of the world uh made made incredible uh advances uh in our society. He's also um I I often reference this, I reference this in my book. Um he's said to have said, why is it that I always get um the whole person when what I really want is a pair of hands? So I'm gonna say it again. Why is it that I always get the whole person when what I really want is a pair of hands? And so that way of thinking obviously marginalizes the human being, and this has been the way of thinking when it comes to work for a long time now. And so there was a guy by the name of Frederick Taylor at about the same period of time who came up with this uh approach to work called uh sci uh scientific management theory. Um and he based his principles uh oddly enough on principles from the sciences, including physics. But what he was doing was he was applying the science of objects to organizations and people with the intent to increase efficiency, uh, increase productivity, and ultimately profit. And so the only issue with that was he marginalized, and he and others marginalized and kind of forgot the human along the way. And so all the stuff that we're doing with engagement now is trying to reclaim all of that. But I go back to the foot in the gas, foot, foot on the gas and on the break. We're trying to make our workplaces more engaging, engage, uh engaged or engaging, and at the same time, we still have this old mindset. That's what we're trying to shake uh shift here.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

It goes back to your your analogy of the the the solving for the symptom. Or I I even I even like to think of it at times in terms of that that ultimate macro problem versus macro micro. And one of my one of my favorite analogies when I think about this is the the doctor, right? Like you get your blood drawn and all of the tests look great, but they don't actually look at you and you've broken your ankle, right? Like you're you're the injury is the ankle injury, but we're testing for the blood and the the liver's checking out okay. And again, I I think so much of it also comes back to the way that we talk about work, the way that we're setting expectations at the human being level. And I think a recurring theme on this podcast has been. Whether I'm talking to a CEO or a head of human resources, vice president of people, each and every one of them talks about putting people first. Putting people first, putting people first. And I I have this, I have this thought process around this that you're not going to change it overnight. There's not going to be a federal mandate that comes down that says, hello, everybody, work is now going to be better. It's no longer something that you're going to hate on Sunday and Sunday scaries, they're going to ruin the day. It has to happen company at a time, leader at a time. And if one leader impacts 10 people, and then those 10 people impact another 10 people, um, that's how we create change. Is that how you're viewing it? Am I right in that, or is there another way? Do you is that why you're writing the book? Is that what you believe that it's at the company and the individual human level to spark this change?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, um, I think that it has to happen on multiple levels. Uh, I often have I've said uh that it happens, it's a grassroots effort. Um, yes, from the bottom up, but also the middle out. Um you know, for those people who the main priority is to um just serve shareholders, um that that's that's gonna be a tough battle. However, there are lots of people, up-and-coming leaders that have felt this coming, are trying to get behind this shift, and have not really figured out how do we dismantle, or let me maybe say differently, how do we how do we um create new systems that also take care of the human being? And how do we sunset the systems that are undermining the things that we want? Let me give you a quick example.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Please, please.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Um I was on a project many years ago where uh the organization I was a part of was really promoting that we collaborate, that we work well together, that we um communicate, support each other in order to best serve our client, which obviously makes sense. You know, you want your team to really work effectively together in order to get the results that you promised. At the same time, while all of us were looking to work together, we were also going through a performance review period. And so the performance review, the way that it was set up, um, the performance management system uh was forced ranking. So all of us knew in the back of our minds that I had to do better than the next person in order to get promoted, in order to get a uh a bump in my salary. So at the same time, again, put on the gas and on the break, we're being encouraged to support each other, work together, and all of us had good intentions, but still in the back of our heads, we knew I gotta beat out this guy. And because I had because all of us knew that, little things started to creep up. Yeah, like people withhold information, people would say things that would undermine the other person, people would not give people on the other team opportunities because they wanted the opportunity. So those are the kind of systems that we have to rethink in order to uh put people first. Yeah. And so it's and for me, it's not about uh is it people or profit? I see this more as like yin or yang or yin and yang, right? It's gotta be both. And that's been the challenge, is that I think sometimes leaders feel like, okay, I gotta really make sure we hit the numbers, but then okay, no, no, I have to take care of the people, and it keeps going back and forth. It's like, no, we really need to sit down and figure out how do we value both equally?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah. I I can't give credit to somebody uh on this podcast because as I'm thinking it through, I can't remember exactly who said it. And but the I asked that similar question about how do you manage up to the board and put an emphasis on people and say, I want to invest in the people at this level that the company's never done before. And how do you convince them to do that? And she said, and I I she I'm I'm getting close to remembering who it is, but I'm still not gonna name her. She said flat out, without the people, we don't hit the profit. So the people, the people are what drive that. And we need to think about that more. We need to make that shift from transaction to relational leadership. And and I know that's a big focus for you is helping leaders go through that, you know, through your coaching now at velocity and even through the programs that we have and and and just the book in general, I think is going to help leaders pull themselves in that direction. But why do you think that it seems so simple to say let's go from transactional to relational? So I guess what does that shift actually look like in practice? And why do you why are you honing in on that so much as such a critical piece of the puzzle?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Thanks for the question, Alec. Um, I'm going to involve you in the answer.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

So, Alec, uh, you're a sales guy, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

For better or for worse.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Okay. So I'm curious. Um why can't uh so why are relationships um important to what you do? And so why can't you just put a set of slides with numbers and figures in front of your clients and that be enough to close a deal?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

And my my answer is is always the same on this. People only buy from people that they know, like, and trust. I'm pretty straightforward on that one. That that people only buy from people they know, like, and trust.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

And knowing has to do with how much time you take away from the transactions to be relational.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

And once you get to know each other, it's possible for them to actually like you.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Because they feel connected to you. And then as they start to learn more about you, then that leads to trust.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Because they say, oh, okay, this is somebody that I get who understands me. Uh, this is someone that I might want to do business with. And here's the thing is that this uh relational approach makes a lot of things easier.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

So I want to give you, I want to give you another example.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Please do.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Um, accountability. We often talk about accountability. Um I was pondering not long ago, why is it that um we need to hold people accountable? Why are they just why don't they just hold themselves accountable? Why, why do we have to hold people accountable? And what I realized was, and I thought about this, I said, okay, I remember when I was in my 20s, you know, didn't have a home like I do now, but you know, I was uh I lived in an apartment, and then I'd have my friends come help me move. And I thought to myself, when I think about this accountability issue, um when it comes to having my friends help me move, I just ask them, and they come and they commit to an entire day. Maybe I don't even have all my boxes packed, and they commit to helping me move all my stuff from one place to another place or get at least packed up on the truck. Yeah, and I thought to myself, why would they do that? And at no point during that experience do I say, oh well, I'm gonna hold you accountable to helping me move. The reason why I don't have to say that to them is because of our relationship. And if for some reason they have to, they flake out on me in a sense that they can't do it, they're gonna call me, they're gonna apologize, they're gonna try and find someone else to help me, they're gonna do everything in their power because of our relationship to make sure that I'm taken care of. And I call that relationship-based accountability. And so that is one of the reasons why we need to move from transactional leadership to relational leadership. Because if I have that kind of relationship with you, Alec, and we work together, you're gonna say, I don't want to let Patrick down. Yeah, I know I've spent time, we've spent time getting to know each other. We know what matters. Yes, it's it's it's uh important that I have um I am capable of being accountable, right? There are some people that we work with that you know they just don't follow through. Right. Um to understand why they're not following through. Are they not capable of following through? Or is this something blocking them from following through? Now, if they're not capable of following through and they're not capable of doing the job, then maybe they shouldn't have the job. But if this is someone that is capable of getting the job done, why would you need to hold them accountable? I it's the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

The relationship, it the example of the friends moving and asking that question back to me on the sales side is is is super eye-opening for me, Patrick, because when you think about relational leadership, it's another one of these conversations that it's like, well, yeah, that's a no-brainer. Now, as you get into this remote world and you've got 50 team members across the country that you maybe get a one-on-one with every other week, and you're swamped. Are you thinking, hey, I really want to check in to see how Patrick and his son and his his family's vacation went, when you're like, honestly, Patrick, I've got 30 minutes and I need to know what is up in order to survive. And that's where, in my opinion, it comes back to this idea of human beings at work. If if I am so busy, if I am the busiest I've ever been that I can't spend three minutes asking how the trip went, am I even a human at work anymore? Like, forget the human relation, but am I treating myself as a human being when I am trying to scarf down a granola bar? And I'm like, Patrick, I don't even care about your trip. I need to know about the Q2 numbers. Like, that's just disrespectful to me. It's disrespectful to you as well, but it's disrespectful to me on top of that.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah, yeah. Um, and that's and that that has to do with the mindset shift, you know, that shift to not just being more relational, but also uh what you're talking about, which is self-care. Yeah, um, that self-care uh is is uh really important. Yeah, um I I I talk about it in the book uh where uh there are three things that are really important. Um I talk about self-care, um self-regulation. And let's see, what was the third one? Self-care, self-regulation, and uh what was it? Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

I was only gonna say self-awareness just because that's where okay, okay. I'm like, I thought I knew what I was going. Hey, I read the book. This is great news. Yes, you did, Alex.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yes, thank you. Self-care, self-regulation, and self-awareness. Um, and if we take any of those pieces out, it makes it very difficult for me to show up as my best. Yeah. So um uh like if I'm not taking care of myself, it's hard for me to show up and be supportive and care about you. Um, I'm just I'm I'm depleted. Uh I haven't eaten well, I haven't exercised, I haven't really taken care of myself. So regulating myself is going to be hard. Um my self-awareness is important because if I don't, if I'm not aware of how I'm interacting with other people, what impact I'm making, I'm not aware of the things that um I need in order to take care of myself, um, then you know, obviously I can't really, I can't really uh interact with you in a way that's going to be supportive. Right. Um and so those those pieces are really, really important. Um and uh self-care, self-regulation, and self-awareness, they all have to be there in order for me to show up as a relational leader.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

And and they they compound as well. If you do it, the next person does it, and it and it kind of becomes a little bit addicting uh as well. And it's something that you have to you have to train yourself. I think that's the thing, is I I I've asked this question of you, I think in separate conversations, but it's like there's who's coming to save the day, right? Like Superman's not coming and and and and solving everything. You have to pick up humanity at work, how caring people will create thriving workforces, right? Like you have to you have to want this on your own as part of it. I want to ask you, Patrick, when when we were prepping for this, I wanted to focus on this theme of engagement and the shift that we've talked about so far. And I just looked down and we're already about 33 minutes into this, which is shocking that the time has gone by that fast. But I asked you what section was the one that fired you up the most? And if I have my notes correctly, you had called out chapter six, the path forward. And it's a it's a great, it's a great section about where we're headed and and how we get there. Am I correct in that before I go any further? Was that one of the sections that you were just fired up about? Or am I do I have that mistaken?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Uh you're you're not mistaken. Um, I think it it really does articulate uh our path forward. Um and uh yeah, I am I am for sure uh that is definitely one of the chapters I think uh is one of the more powerful chapters because it paints a picture of where we might be able to go. Um happy to tell me.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Tell tell the audience. No, that that the the question is super open-ended here. I want to give you here, as we as we get near to the end, I want to give you an opportunity to to paint that picture for the audience. And um I also want to hear why you're so passionate about this. Writing a book is no easy task, right? And you and I have talked about that task over the last couple of months since we both joined the Velocity team. So paint the picture of the path forward in in whatever way you want to do so. And then I want to know why does this fire you up as much as it does? Because I can feel it coming through the the screen the way that you talk about this, that this uh for for for lack of better terms, this isn't a hobby for you. This is something that you really are invested in and believe in.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah. Um so here's what I'd say. Um, I'm gonna talk a little bit about the shift. Um, I don't want to spoil everything from chapter six.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Um, but um, a lot of this is about how we change our mindset from some of the core beliefs that we've had about work. So, for example, um, we have this belief that if um that work is not supposed to be fun.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

And um and and what I am inviting people to consider is that when work is fun and we were experiencing work as fun, then it it's an indication that we're working together the right way. So that's a relational mindset, right? Not just a productivity mindset. So when if I walk into the office and I see some of the some of my my workers having fun, I I don't come in and I'm not like, oh yeah, you know, you guys need to get back to work.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

No, it's an indication that they are they're relating well to each other. And so there another mindset is, oh, you know, the purpose of work is just to make money. And so if if that's the purpose of work, then um then I can justify ignoring the human being or marginalized the human being and just focusing on their output, not their experience. I'm not focused on the uplift of the people around me. And so that's a shift too that I'm advocating. And I talk more about in the book. So there's a shift here from getting down the business to really getting to know each other. From this, you mentioned busyness earlier, the sense of uh we're often uh there's always this sense of urgency. Yeah, and so uh shifting from urgency and busyness, and there's a chapter where I talk about busyness killing the heart. It's because when you're so busy, it's almost impossible, impossible is overstated. You have to be really mindful about how you're engaging others, you have to be really mindful about uh taking the time to really check in to really find out how is this person really doing? Yeah, and so the shift is from urgency and busyness to presence and and and discernment. So it requires a little bit, it's slowing down even just for a moment, and being able to call out any of those like uh emergencies that maybe not even real, but it's just because there's this constant uh urge to keep moving quickly is being able to pause. And then there's and I talk a little bit about the shift from um uh control and compliance to what I talked about before accountability, where it's trust and and and shared accountability. And I'm accountable to you and I own something because I know we're both working towards something uh interesting, something valuable, something with purpose that has been talked about. And it's something that we can both get behind because we know each other. I understand what's important to you, and you understand what's important to me and how it fits into this larger picture of what we're trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

I don't want to say I was leading the witness on that one, but I that's exactly where I wanted you to go. Specifically, the the purpose uh uh of work is not just to make money, work is not meant to be fun, busyness killing the heart. Like those are all topics that I think everybody needs to read and consume. And and also it's not a set it and forget it. I read this uh what now two or three months ago, and you think I haven't had a bad day in between there? Right? Like it's not a you don't flip the switch and suddenly the mindset's gone. And you have to recognize that it is a process and it's a muscle that you have to train on a on a day-to-day basis. And it's also about collecting the right people in the in the family of network, right? Like in the community that you have that hey, if I am having that really up and down day, that I have somebody both at work, at home, uh, somebody in my network that is working a similar job that I can go to and be like, whoo, you know, this day got to me. This day was was was enough. And, you know, I had one of those days on Monday and we had a uh a management meeting with me and you and Blake. And by the end of it, I was like, okay, I can set some of this to the side. And it was not as big of a deal as I had made it. It was it was much more tangible uh once I was able to talk it through and have that conversation. So it's just a good reminder to everybody that this is not this doesn't happen tomorrow, and you can't beat yourself up if it happens, and then all of a sudden, three weeks later, you have a bad day because that's going to continue to happen as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah. Um, I I've been learning a lot about uh self-compassion in addition to having compassion for others. Um and so I talk a lot in my book uh about self-compassion, but there are there are others who've talked, I'm sorry, I talk a lot of my book about compassion for others. Um but there are others uh who have who have uh done a deep dive uh into the um the world of self-compassion and how important that is. Because if you're gonna show up well and you're gonna do those things I mentioned, have the self awareness, um, self regulation, self care, all those things are related to how how well you're how much compassion you give yourself in this in this system that always asks for more.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I love it. Patrick, this episode has been everything that I thought it would be. I looked down and we're we're darn near that 45 minute mark. And I told you I was going to be able to stop us before then. But I I love this topic. Uh, I know the book will be out at some point here in the future. And I've got a feeling I'm gonna force you to come back on and we're gonna talk more about it. But before we wrap up, I've got to ask you the four rapid fire questions, and I've got to ask you who we should interview next. These rapid fire questions, 30 seconds apiece, just quick hitters that you really believe. We're gonna start with question number one. What is one leadership habit that you rely on every day, no matter what?

SPEAKER_01 44:44

So this one I learned through my coaching experience, and that is um clarifying others' agenda. So what that means is it comes from uh something I'm gonna talk about in a minute, uh, more about is uh curiosity. Like really trying to understand, like asking the question, you know, uh here's here's the agenda for day. Is there anything else that we need to make sure that we give time to? So even if I come with my own agenda, I need to clarify what the others, other people in the room are are focused on.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

I I love I love that uh not only as a leadership habit on a day-to-day basis, but for big meetings and when there is conflict, uh, being able to ask that question, what are your expectations out of this meeting is a is a gold mine. Question number two here, Patrick. What's the most underrated skill that a leader needs in order to be successful?

SPEAKER_01 45:39

I'm gonna give you two.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Please.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Um care. Uh and so what care looks like, because people get a little uncomfortable just with that word sometimes. It looks like my level of attention, uh, my consideration and my generosity toward others. And then curiosity, it's really about not having to feel like I have to know everything. So Buddhists talk about it in terms of a beginner's mind. It's a mindset that's fully open to learning without having to show up uh having all the answers. So those two I think are really um underrated skills, uh, and they give people the power to uh create more connection. Uh, all those things around collaboration that we say that we want, engagement, the topic of this, what we're talking about here, um, understanding, insight, creativity, care, and curiosity are going to help you get there.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Oh, I love it. I love it. And I'm just gonna give a shout out one more time to the three things of self-care, self-regulation, and self-awareness, because that also would do the trick. On the flip side of this, uh, question number three What's the one thing that great leaders need to stop doing, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Prioritizing transactions over relationships.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

For those who saw it, I dropped the pen. That's a mic drop moment. I'm not even gonna add any more to it. Um, that's a snippet that's coming out on a LinkedIn post near you. Question number four in the final The Rapid Fire. What's the best leadership advice that you have ever received, Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Don't compare your inner to other people's outer. So most people, we talked about robot culture, come and they they're supposed they're they're coming, they're supposed to have their stuff together all the time. And so people show up with their best face, but you don't always see what's going on behind the scenes unless you ask them.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

I love that. That's uh that's also a brand new. I've not heard that through 30, 30 plus episodes of the podcast. So I love it. Uh, last question I have for you before we get out is who is the leader that we should interview next? Somebody that you believe is doing great work, meaningful work that the activating greatness audience could learn from.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

I'm gonna give you two. All right. Um, first is uh Kia Afkari. Uh, he is uh director at the Greater Good Science Center. Um, he's done some really impressive work on why kind leaders win. And then there's RNJ Katakam. He is uh author and uh leader in fintech and the future of capitalism. He's also an author of a new book envisioning how finance uh can truly serve humanity.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Ooh, ooh, those are some heavy, heavy hitters here, Patrick. That uh I'm sure that it will make their day when I send them this video and say, hey, Patrick just gave you a shout-out. Now I have to guilt you to being on the Activating Greatness podcast. Patrick, I uh I knew this episode was gonna be a lot of fun. Uh anytime that I get to connect with you, I always feel smarter, I feel calmer. Uh, and I I can't thank you enough. You're you're one of the reasons that Velocity is such a a great organization to work with. And also uh one of the great uh one of the reasons why I'm so excited about the future of work is that there are leaders like you who are willing to invest in this and not only invest in it from a time perspective, but giving your thoughts to the podcast, to the book, and and being an executive coach for leaders out there on a day-to-day basis. So thank you so much. I know everybody that's listening to this is also gonna get a ton of value out of it. When you do listen to it, go connect with Patrick on LinkedIn. You gotta you gotta stay in touch uh with Patrick, let him know that you listened to the episode. You're gonna see some news about the book here uh over the summer, into the fall, into 2027. It's gonna be everywhere. We'll get Patrick back on uh the show to talk more about it, but make sure you eventually get your copy of it. Uh, and then let Patrick know that the reason you read it is because of the Activating Greatness podcast. Make sure you leave it five-star reviews and download for future episodes wherever you get your podcast. Patrick, any final thoughts before we get out of here? What's that that 10-second, that 30-second takeaway that everybody needs to take from Patrick?

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Uh, I'm gonna leave you with a line from the conclusion of my book. Remind yourself of who you were in the most caring moments of your life. Remember how great it felt to be that person. Then bring that person to work.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

That's a good way to end it. That's gonna be the that's gonna be the promo for the episode on LinkedIn here in a couple of weeks when this episode airs. As always, the only reason this episode and the only reason the show exists, the wonderful guests like Patrick, but also the wonderful audience that we have within the Activating Greatness Network that continue to listen, that continue to show up and give feedback and tell us what you're liking and not liking and what guests you want to have. Please continue to do that. We're still releasing episodes every Monday and every Thursday on pace for near 80 episodes here in 2026. So thank you. Thank you for listening, for showing up, and for being a part of the community of leaders who refuse to settle for good enough. We will see you on the next episode of Activating Greatness. Thanks again, Patrick.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Thank you, Alex.